Speaker 1 0:00

This is part two of our conversation with Sam Elliott. We hope you enjoy it.

Speaker 2 0:03

The Kill City podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of the lands we're on. Here in Melbourne, that's the Wurundjeri Woi Worong people of the Kulin Nation. We honour their deep connection to storytelling, a tradition carried across more than 2,000 generations. Pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and we extend that acknowledgement to First Nations people listening today.

Speaker 0:59

Always do that. Listen to other people, but don't like my friend Julie Keyes, I think is the one who said is take out what works for you and leave what doesn't. So like whatever you're kind of like, oh yeah, that's all it checks out. If you have something in your gut where you really like a like no, and someone's saying, you know, they want to change that, don't like stick with your gut. Um yeah, just stick with that and view it as a job. Like, view it, view it as a job. Um, so whatever time you can carve out for yourself, conscious of the fact that a lot of listeners will have a lot more commitments than I have, which is just a full-time job and stuff. Carve out time for yourself and view it as a job. You've got to go to that job, otherwise, if you don't go to that job, you're gonna have a meeting with people in culture that you don't want. So go to the job, do what you can. Be kind to yourself, though, the flip side of that as well. Okay, so don't judge yourself by the yardstick of other people's successes. Don't go into a bookshop and say, look at all these books. You're not, you there's no way you can possibly know how much of a journey they've gone through and how much help they've gotten to get to that point, okay? So don't judge your word document that you're slaving over based against a book that's in a in a bookshop, okay? So be kind to yourself with that as well. I don't write every day. Um, power to people that can, but I would say work hard, but don't burn yourself out. Be kind as well, have fun as well. You are doing something amazing, you're telling yourself a story, that's awesome. Yeah, it can be hard. It's it's hard for me every day to start writing. I've got to really trick myself into doing it. Once it's flowing, two, three, four thousand words that that can happen, that that does happen. Um, but I I've really got to trick, I've got to, it's like a it's like like a like I don't know, like a possum is on the ground in my living room, and I've got to sneak up with like a tower to get it. Like that's how I've got to start writing. I have to sneak up to it and then launch and then start writing. And then once, once it's it's starting, the the possum of the writing has come, you know, it's letting me stroke it and stroke its fur and stuff like that. But I have to get to that point and I've got to sneak up on it because if I don't and if I don't have a lot of coffee and all that sort of stuff, it's it's all over it, bro. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 3:10

I'm sorry, but I'm just mesmerized by the possum anecdote because possums are such a a pest down here in Victoria and we're always trying to get rid of them. It was kind of like but yeah, you're capturing it's dishes, you know, possum. Exactly, exactly. Wow, and I also love you talking about it being a job. Because at the end of the day, yes, to for you to be able to produce it it is. So in terms of this being a job and your next book, which is a dahlia book, I believe, Deep Dake, can you tell us where you're up to with that? I think you gave us one clue in terms of what um how um oh my goodness, I've forgotten her name. The cult leader.

Speaker 3:56

Fairchild Short.

Speaker 2 3:57

Fairchild. Fairchild short, yeah, yeah. That's the only clue you've given us. Can you give us a chance? No, no, no, no worries, no worries, no worries. Okay, where are we up to in the timeline? When am I going to go to the bookshop and actually read it? How far away are we? What can you tell us?

Speaker 4:09

Okay, so the publishers, the publishers are finalizing their uh the editorial reports back at the moment. Um, hoping to come out at some point uh maybe mid next year, depending upon how quickly I can then action these structural edits. But so I have I have finished it. I have finished my version. It went from 270,000 words to a hundred lean hundred and forty, which is still too long. So I've got my work cut out for me with that. Uh without spoiling too much of it. Uh, let's say there's Dahlia's in Sydney. Uh, she is fulfilling a promise that she made to her mother in the closing pages of the last book, and it is Dahlia versus the Manosphere, albeit a sort of happy name, Andrew Tate type figure, a guy called Jackson Price, which I believe there's the so there's the the matriarchal cult, there's the people's cleansing light, sure, and then that's a fictional cult, and then there's a much more only semi-fictional sort of cult that is you know ever proliferating off a lot of members, which is the manosphere, and this fictional character of uh Jackson Price, which is uh very heavily influenced by Edwin Tate and the likes of him, who's clashing with their child Shaw in Sydney, and they're set to have a big showdown.

Speaker 2 5:29

Oh my god.

Speaker 5:29

Uh, about a week before the inciting incident happens in the opening pages that I won't tell you too much about. But yeah, that's what's going on.

Speaker 2 5:37

You've given us plenty. Wow. That's fantastic. I'm just trying to unpick now. So we've got the situation, we've got the clash. What about Dahlia? What did you want Dahlia to learn and grow? And what was for you? Like, what will we what will we what will we see Dahlia do differently? Like what how how was it you thinking about the importance of her growth as a character for the next book?

Speaker 6:07

Well, I think Dahlia with each particular novel kind of constantly outdoes herself and how the fact that she prevails over sort of these insurmountable sort of circumstances uh and becomes more outspoken to the various sort of bullies and psychopathic people in which she encounters. So there's plenty more of that. I can't swear to her not making more mistakes because there's definitely more big mistakes coming up. But is it is her heart in the right place throughout all of that? Yeah, probably. Um, but in terms of of of growth, uh I think that particularly with the introduction of her sister, uh, and that will sort of uh what's going to happen with all that will kind of maybe cause her to re-evaluate a situation of her as well, and hopefully a positive way. But yeah.

Speaker 2 6:52

Well, thank you. That's um that's given me a lot to to um hang on to now, to make sure something now for it to you know get to the bookstores. So thank you. Um are you working on anything else?

Speaker 7:04

I am. I am so about a standalone novel. I am running standalone novel.

Speaker 2 7:09

I needed to pick back up the Mills and Boone comment you made a while ago.

Speaker 7:12

Oh yeah, the Intimate Internet. Um it's not intimate internet. Uh I will sp I will spoil that. So it's not it's not that. Uh it is, look, it's it's it's a little bit of a set in the not too distant future, uh, and it is a it has the scaffolding of a crime novel, but it is where I think we're gonna be heading towards with AI-powered sex robots and OnlyFans content creators and the nature of consent and sexual servitude that's gonna happen in a quite a short period of time, in addition to a few different sort of issues that I'm really worried are gonna be plaguing society pretty quick, pretty soon. Um, so yeah, it sounds a bit like you say, the robots thing. I think it's pretty grounded. I'd say it's probably the scariest thing I've ever written. It scares me, um, particularly because I hope I'm wrong about everything that I'm predicting is gonna happen in it. Really truly hoping I'm wrong about that. Uh, I'm also working on an uh audio book, uh, an audiobook uh that is based on a novella that I wrote a long time ago when I was working in the television studio, kind of a night of psychological thriller. And I've got a couple of other things I'm kicking around as well in between that. So lots of stuff. There's not enough hours in a day, but yeah.

Speaker 2 8:30

Lots of things to juggle. And juggle that means even less sleep. Yeah.

Speaker 8:35

That's good. That's good.

Speaker 1 8:37

So, I mean, obviously juggling a lot of projects and writing can be a very solitary gig. Um I think about what you were saying before about when you did a lot of this in isolation to now that you've got a a bit of a crew of um uh a crew of writers that you're close and connected with. Um so how much do you use them in this stage when you're needing to be kept grounded and when you're drafting and revising and writing? Um who's in that crew these days?

Speaker 9:08

So so so I don't um I draft a million trillion times before it goes anywhere near anyone else's eyes. Um the reason being is because like yeah, like my process is is is horrendous on the on the brain in terms of like writing it all down and getting these insane work counts and then pruning and making it into something that resembles a novel and not just this colossal mess. Um, so the way in which it always goes is yeah, I've got my good friends Haley and Julie, uh others as well. There's plenty of uh some of my crew that I met during I did one course at the Australian Writer's Centre, the Write Your Novel course, which was brilliant, uh which is a place based in Sydney, but they also offer digital virtual courses as well. So met some really good crew there as well, people that I still talk to to this day. We started during the COVID, just before COVID struck, we were meeting in person and then COVID struck, and we did the rest of the course uh online, which is a funny, strange experience we all probably were familiar with during the pandemic. Share with them, they share with me. Um starting to also get through meeting people through the debut crew as well, which was I was put on to by the lovely or fellow debut novelist Sophie Stern. Uh so meeting people like that as well. Um, but yeah, it is it is pretty solitary Leigh. It's certainly it gets to it gets to a point where it's like got to be pretty, pretty polished for me. Because I feel like it's never it never reads as good, it reads as less shit. This is the only way I can I can really I don't know. I don't know if like other people like don't have that sort of curse, but I sort of sure do it's like the opposite of King Midas touch. Um and then yeah, so I just gotta kind of work through that. So when it gets to a point where I'm not removing or changing large slabs, that's when it starts ready to send it to friends and see what they sort of think. But I don't that's pretty late in the process, it's got a it's a lot of gestation first.

Speaker 1 11:01

So we've talked about obviously you know you've told us a story about getting feedback from publishers um and taking it in, and what feedback do you think uh helps you most um to help move a story forward?

Speaker 11:19

Brutal honesty, scorched earth, like the like yeah, don't sugarcoat anything, tell me what is absolutely not working. Um uh yeah, I'm I'll probably I'll probably be a bit sad when I get it, but um I think that I think that you can tell someone's not trying to be malicious, they're just really trying to, you know, can drop the niceties and convey something that really needs to be actioned. Um so for me it's it's it's and I know like plenty of plenty of incredible prolific writers that absolutely do not like that approach whatsoever, but for me it's yeah, eviscerate me. That's fine. So that way I really can can can see what I sort of need to do uh to to move forward as well. So yeah, by all means put a line, put a line through a whole paragraph and just like put a question on it, like question mark or something like that. That's fine. Just to get the brain working. Um, yeah, but I can definitely not recommend that as a as an approach for a lot of a lot of writers. I know that's just my weird way of going about it.

Speaker 1 12:14

Um, and then there's your readers, so their feedback can be wonderfully unpredictable. Uh what's the most lovely or you know, funny reaction you've had to Haze, or is there anything just a little bit weird or shareable?

Speaker 12:29

I mean, there's like like that's one thing that that's also impossible to predict, is like just how wonderful like so many people are with their time, their generosity of spirit in in on Instagram, particularly like that's those there's just people all the time that just say lovely things and you know make these the most incredible and thoughtful reviews that it just just like makes your day. Um it's just the most lovely thing ever. That happens, that's that's something I could never have predicted would ever happen to me, and that's the closest that you ever get as a writer to validation. Yes, most beautiful thing ever. In terms of um, I'm also someone that I again like this isn't like I know a lot of people don't do this sort of thing because it's it's it's probably not healthy, but I I'm I look at one-star reviews like on good reads, like that's fine. Like, nothing can really kind of remotely even eclipse anything like my own self-doubt. So, you know, how about it with that? Um, and the the criticism that I see a bit, and I'll cop, I'll be like, Yeah, that's fair enough. It's like that it's like kind of like worse the effect of there's a lot going on, there's too much going on. And I'm like, yeah, there's there's a there's a fair bit, there's a fair bit going on, but like that's I'd probably rather cop that than it's boring or nothing's moving. Like I'd rather that there's there's there's a bit going on because hey, there's a bit going on when I'm writing it. So that's you know, you take that up with my imagination because that's where it's it's all sort of coming from. Um, but yeah, I will kind of reiterate again there as there's no shame and not looking at your one-star reviews. Probably don't do that. I don't recommend that. I've got a couple of friends uh who have there's a way you can ban yourself on Goodreads from looking at your own books so that way you don't see stuff that's gonna destroy you forever, um, which I should probably do at some point, but yeah, that's just me.

Speaker 2 14:09

Oh, I was gonna say, yeah, that um can really go down a rabbit hole reading some of those reviews. I do wonder people what they yeah, how they're feeling about their lives when they write some of those things. I suspect it says a lot more about them than you, as what you're writing, also.

Speaker 14:25

I think it's just like it's just like it's just anything on the internet. I mean, it's just it's it's just it's just it's just I I think a lot of people uh out there just view it as a healthy, harmless outlet, like you just like just a valve that you just you just let off some steam or vitriol and that's not gonna impact anyone. There's an Instagram account of a lady who's a model called uh the Instagram account handle is called He's So Mid. All one word, he's so mid. Uh, and I thoroughly recommend having a look at that. Helen, I'm glad I see you writing it down. Uh so she uh looks at so pictures from from Facebook of Dualipa and all these, you know, incredibly beautiful um celebrities, and the comments that uh both men and women leave on these on these pictures, and she replicates their profile picture as well. So these less less than stunningly beautiful people leaving the most repulsive comments and she it's very good, it's very, very good. Um, but that is that is probably a good way of showing that people leave very unkind stuff no matter what. Um, and yeah, if you like there's there's no harm in not looking at it, don't look at it at all uh because it's just terrible and it'll just make you doubt humanity. But um, yeah, for every person that says something awful, there's gonna be someone that says something nice as well.

Speaker 2 15:40

Absolutely, and I have to admit, uh, even though you did see me write it down, I I will try not to go too much down the rabbit hole because my favorite Instagram um handle is basically um we rate dogs, which is basically just a good one. That's a good one. I thought that yeah, just rating how wonderful their dogs are, it's just the best. So if you have a bad day, you just watch that, the reels for those, like the best weeks, the dogs of the week, it's just awesome. So some of you, yeah, we can get way too much in the spiral. But talking about um traps and things, you you've actually given lots of really good advice, I think, for people, particularly writing around sort of do's and don'ts.

Speaker 16:17

Thank you.

Speaker 2 16:18

But is there anything in particular that you wish someone had kind of warned you early on in your writing career?

Speaker 16:25

Don't uh don't let anyone dim your shine. You're gonna meet like any industry, you're gonna meet some, you're gonna meet some people that for whatever reason aren't the nicest. That's on them. So if you if you meet someone that um but that being that being said, preface that by saying you always be the nicest person you possibly can be. Don't be effusively gushing, you know, disingenuous like that, but just be a good, genuine human being. Go into the industry offering something, not just expecting to take something. So the way I recommend all people looking to start off in the industry that have that would like to um eventually become a published author or someone in some you know high position like that, uh, is don't just come out with your hand out wanting something, come offering something. So podcasting, reviewing, bookmaking, anything. There's so many things that you can do that you can give to the industry, which is such a fantastic way to establish yourself. Uh so if you're doing all that and you have this really great attitude uh and you encounter someone that you perceive to be a gatekeeper that is uh less than nice to you, let's say, don't take it to heart, don't let that dim your shine, don't become vindictive, accept that that's just the way they are. The industry is very small, it is very overworked, it is very underpaid. Acknowledge that. Um, but yes, if you encounter someone that that you've been nothing but nice to and offered something for, and then they don't treat you with the same level of respect or anything like that, please don't let that dim you or shine. Just uh just just move on because you're a good person and you're offering something to the industry and continue to do that, and you're just gonna meet your people, you're gonna meet your people, you just gotta meet your people, um, and you might meet a few people that aren't your people before you meet your people. But you will meet your people if you go through with this attitude of being a good person and offering something. So, yeah, that's me.

Speaker 2 18:31

I think that's fantastically wise advice. So, no, that's great. And then in terms of you giving back, so what's the smartest or most worthwhile thing that you've kind of um invested in for your writing life? Like something that's really kind of moved the leader for you that potentially might work for other writers that you'd want to share?

Speaker 18:52

I okay for for me, for me, the course that I did at the Australian Writer Centre uh was was fantastic, but but it's like fantastic institution, uh fantastic course. My main takeaway from that though was like meeting, and like you don't you don't need to necessarily do a uh course that the the AWC course wasn't overtly expensive, but you to meet to go and meet a community of like-minded people uh and be able to to learn how to truly read and offer uh people constructive criticism and and feedback and to in turn receive that is the best thing that you can possibly do because it works twofold. So you're learning, you're improving your own writing, and you're already just through this at building a network of people. You don't need to like everyone else's work, not everyone's gonna like your work, but if you're approaching it, and that's even that's that can be the best feedback that you possibly get, is someone that doesn't read your genre or you don't read their genre offering feedback because that's going to be more of a let's say uh how something is constructed, except for like a hot take on someone's you know subjective view. So this is all great sort of stuff. So I can't stress that enough because that was what I was trying to do for like 20 years was to find a community of people, and I did that through going to a course. But there is so many different ways. Every writer centre, every state has them. Look at their community boards, they all have um lists of writers' groups. It's never been easier to find them on places like Facebook, Instagram, all those sort of places. Sign up for every one of the community groups, the you know, Victoria Writer Centre, New South Wales Writer Centre, sign up for all their newsletters, keep them out for bless you, for all of their newsletters and check out because they've got lots of writing groups, join a writing group, go on with a winning attitude, actually commit yourself to not only having your work read, but reading other people's work and offering criticism and if you constructive criticism, and if you do that, within no time at all, you'll have a great group of people and your work will get better. I promise you that.

Speaker 1 21:06

Um, if it's okay with you, um keen to talk about The Right Way, your podcast, uh, where you sit down with writers at every stage of their journey, um, from best-selling authors to debut novel novelists. Um what I love is that you don't just talk about their latest book, you get into the hard bits, um, their push-through and what keeps them writing. So, what gave you the idea for that as a podcast? Uh, and how did you get it off the ground?

Speaker 21:33

Thank you, Leigh. So, first and foremost, um, so yeah, so that's because it's I think the main thing that you're talking about there is that the crux of the show is about uh was there ever a point where you came to a sort of crossroads where you buy you were potentially going to give up on this this writing vocation that you've that you've done. Uh not everyone has, you know, but it's always an interesting question because it because it's because you'll find a lot of the time, and obviously, no two writers' journeys are the same. Um, but that's what I really wanted to know because I've obviously been plagued with self doubt. Still am uh you know my entire writing life. So I always wanted to hear from other people as well because particularly when you're talking to like very established authors that you greatly admire, to hear from them uh about you know, humanize them in this way of them saying, Yeah, like you know, I'm I'm flawed as well. It kind of almost harkens back to what we were talking about with you know parents going from being a superhero figure to becoming this humanized but uh normal sort of human being, um, and that sort of regard. So then just being able to speak to and finding out from all these writers that I really really admired in that regard. So, in terms of the getting this the start of the podcast, uh I put it off for so long because like I obviously wanted to talk to people because it's it's the best way uh I feel like engaging with people is to sit across from them or sit on virtual and talk to them. But I was just like, even though I'm funnily enough, like the the radio the television job I did for like 10 years is innately technical. It wasn't I was scared of doing something technical. I was like, I'm never gonna be able to you know know how to do this or mix sound or do all this sort of stuff. Um, but then so I reached out to uh Danny V, who's got the Words and Nerds podcast. Uh we did a crime lab with RWR McDonald and Kevin Kovacic a few years ago, and then got talking to her and I was like emailed her being like, Listen, can you just tell me the basics of of how you do podcasting real talk? Because I don't know how to do it. And she just she was very generous. She's very generous, and she told me, gave me some pointers, and then I bought the microphone that I'm currently talking to you on, uh, which is kind of like it's its cables getting a bit scary that all his innards is sort of exposed there. I've got to get a new one, but um, yeah, and then the rest is history, and then it all kind of started off, and um Monica McNurney was the first person I've spoken to, and then from there there's just been so many, and then there's been filmmakers from overseas like Brendan Cronenberg and Mia Huntson Love and all this sort of stuff, and it's crazy, it's just crazy. Um, as you guys well know, I dare say.

Speaker 1 24:00

Yes. Um, shout out to the people at uh Buzzsprout for helping us along the way, and Helen and I doing their cohort at the start of the year. Um and your microphone sounds very good, I will say. Um what's been the most rewarding part of it then?

Speaker 24:15

All of it. I mean, like it's so it's so hard to pinpoint that. I've learned so much, not just about like the writing process and and you know, drawn so much reassurance from that. Um, it's just learnt I've learned so much from different perspectives of people's lives from all across the world and all different walks of life. Um, things I would never have known in a million trillion years had I not you know taken the the plunge of of doing the podcast. So it's it's really hard to um quantify like a specific amount because it's it's it's just it's just an ongoing sort of uh reward that I think that well I I don't think I'd be here talking to two lovely people now if I if it wasn't for the podcast and anything like that. I think that that's uh it was instrumental in how I got um or how I'd been heard by the time I approached uh Literary Agent. And I think that that's also something that the the publishers then then heard about when they did acquisitions meetings and all that sort of stuff. So but that was never the the intention at the time, you know. Like I j I just wanted to be able to speak to people and hear their stories and how they came to be, and and then it just all sort of worked out in a really nice way.

Speaker 1 25:24

Love it. Um who's been the most fun to interview so far?

Speaker 25:28

Oh, like it really depends upon how far you want to go back, because like I mean, I've had because I've been doing it like outside the podcast as well. I mean, like, there's you know, there's people that that have been so fun, like like Kimmy Robinson from Twin Peaks was was so funny. Um, Lana Rhodes, the adult filmetrist at Sexpo was was that whole experience was so funny. Eddie Izzard, uh fantastic comedian actor. Um, all of those, that was that was before I even started the podcast. They were just the craziest experiences. So much of that like I did the dodgiest stuff to even get into some of those those sort of situations. Like there was a there was a uh I'd gotten an email address that so there was a thing called the Australia Times for a while, which was like they didn't pay, but they gave me this like great sounding email address, and they went under, but the email address worked for like this is so dodgy, I shouldn't be tired. Anyway, that's fine. Um I didn't do anything illegal, but to my knowledge. Anyway, um, so they gave me this great email address called this semi-like at the Australia Times, and it was getting up to a point where um I was trying to get an interview of Margot Robbie for during the Legend of Tarzan, the film that she did with Alexander Skask. Um, and it got up, it got so far down the track. Like it was literally like they had emailed her publicist in LA, and they were like, When do you need this? When are you intending on speaking to Margot buying all this sort of just like insane sort of stuff uh like that? Which is probably worrisome in hindsight that it was this Neville No One. I wasn't pretending to be someone else, but it was a bit of a weird experience. But anyway, all these sort of experiences were pretty funny uh and have just added to the the overall sort of rich experience.

Speaker 2 27:14

Um adventure! That's just something we have to aspire to. Yeah, how how are we gonna get Margo Robbie on the show? Can we encourage her to write an Australian crime fiction? It'll come. We've opened our eyes, Sam. That's fantastic.

Speaker 1 27:30

So now I have to ask the second part of this question, which was who is who is your dream list or who is the top of your dream list for future episodes?

Speaker 27:42

Well, I mean, there's like a lot of people that I like love, but like I don't know if I'd ever like I'd probably be really scared to to interview them. Like, you know, there's like you know, Margaret Atwood would be incredible to talk to, but I'd be so scared. China Meaville is one of my favourite novelists. I don't think I could talk to that guy, he's too scary. He's got a new book coming out, you know, in October, November, a two two-part 1500 page novel each. Um, that I love that guy. I've done I don't know if I could ever speak to him. Um Maggie O'Farrell, like these people that have just like written the most incredible novels. James Elroy, James Elroy, I love James Ellroy. I would never ever ever speak to the demon dog of the American literature scene. Like he, you know, I've been reading Redsheet at the moment. He's literally one of my favourite crime novelists. I absolutely love him, and I don't think I could interview him, I just have to admire him from afar. Same Richard Flanagan, you know, like Flanagan is like one of the bestest Australian authors ever, and I think that's just a person that I would just like to admire from afar and maybe watch someone far more gifted as an interviewer, you know, talk to them on stage than um than me trying to frame a question and have these like cold eyes staring at me across this like intelligent brow type thing. So yeah.

Speaker 1 28:58

I'd be scared to interview James Elroy as well. Actually, he's an unusual he's an interesting character. Yeah, I'd be intimidated as to to interview him, I think.

Speaker 29:08

I don't think you'd have to do much talking. Like he'd do he'd do the majority of the talking, I think. Um yeah, but then you get like Australia again has some of the best interviewers in the in the world. I mean, Michael Williams, who was the artistic director for the CNU Rise Festival, he always jumps around. I think he was I saw him saw him he came up on Sunrise Festival just the other day. That guy, man, him as an interviewer, like I got to interview him two years ago, and it was just like I'm just like, so do you like stuff? And he just like turns it into the most eloquent, you know. Incredible.

Speaker 2 29:43

Yeah, but you know, the realness, you know, you could have a bit of everything.

Speaker 1 29:47

And that and they are good experiences to have, they're not good experiences to have at the time, but I remember some of the first interviews I ever did. One was chasing a fairly high-profile sports person around for six weeks and then finally getting him and forgetting to hit record on not one but two tape recorders. In my defense, it was 43 degrees. I'd met a said person he'd called me out of the blue and said, Meet me in Glen Huntley Road in half an hour, and I was like, No worries. And I went to one end and he was like, No, I'm at the other end, and I had to run all the way up the other end. And stupidly, when I got to them, I ordered a coffee rather than something that was going to call me out. It was just a disaster waiting to happen, and then I put both of them on the table and didn't hit record on either one of them. And it came out with some absolute gold as well. God, yeah.

Speaker 2 30:43

Oh dear. Well, that's good looking.

Speaker 1 30:46

They're good things to that's how you grow. That's it.

Speaker 2 30:50

That's true, and and while I'm sure you two would love to swap war stories for the rest of the evening, we might start winding the episode down. But just before we let you off the hook, fam, we're hoping to ask just a couple of lighter questions just to ease to the end. Not at all, it's what I'm here for. Can I ask, is there a crime novel that you've read that you thought was so brilliant that you thought, gosh, I wish I'd I'd written that one?

Speaker 31:16

Razorblade Tears. I don't have any time to think about it. S.A. Cosby, any of things he does is just he's a master, he's an absolute master. I love that guy so much, man. I can't like Razor Blade Tears. I've I've recommended that to so many people, I've bought it to other people. That and Shuggy Bane are the two novels that are very different genres that are just like I bought them and recommended them to bought them for so many people and recommended to them that I haven't. Um SA Cosby is just brilliant. Um, I didn't get to go and see him at the Sydney Rise Festival. My love, lovely, lovely absolute champion mother did, and she went and bought a uh copy of All the Sinners Bleed and got it signed for me by him. But um, she was telling us that his story sounded very similar to mine in terms of um really doing it for a long time and not getting any sort of headway and uh persisting and then yeah, but his uh yeah, his novels, man, he is so good, man. Uh yeah, I'd love to meet that dude one day.

Speaker 2 32:12

That's cool. I love your mum. Got that. Yeah, she's decided for you. That's very cool. Yeah, go mums. Go mum. Um all right, so you're uh you're stranded on a desert island and you can only take one Australian crime novel with you. What's the book you want for company?

Speaker 32:34

Jeez, now we're now we're getting to the the hard questions here. Cause I want to like it would have to like it would have to be something that transports me away from like like my circumstances in terms of like I wouldn't want to be reminded of being uh I'll probably go. I'll probably I've I know this is like silly, but I'll probably go the dry, because at least I'm on like mainland and and there's like small town and then like you know, so much of like like it all begins with Jane Harper, yeah. Like it all begins, it all begins with that that novel. Um you know, and so you get to just enjoy it, and uh it's just the the like the like just epitomizes Australiana, the crime, and yeah, that's my choice. That's my choice.

Speaker 2 33:34

Excellent, I love it. I didn't ever quite realise how hard this is for some people. This question. Yeah, I know. I think it's the one book, and it's got to be Australian crime. We've got it really narrow. Sorry.

Speaker 1 33:46

That's um all right. Before we let you escape, we've got one last thing, and it's purely for fun. It's our rapid fire round, the quick and the curious. I'll throw you a bunch of either-or choices. Okay. Just go with whatever pops into your head first. Okay. Um honestly, don't stress. We sort of um we say we make this up as we go. We don't really, we know exactly what we're doing, but we try and make out look like we're just making it up as we go. Are you up for the challenge then?

Speaker 34:11

Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1 34:13

Sorry, Helen Kat's out of the bag. Okay, here we go. Good cop or bad cop?

Speaker 34:20

Good cop.

Speaker 1 34:21

Uh one episode at a time or binge the whole season?

Speaker 34:24

Binge the whole season.

Speaker 1 34:26

Coles or woolies? Woolies. Aaron Fork or Martin Skarsden? Aaron Fork. That's a great question. That's a new one, isn't it? That's a great question. Uh paperback or audiobook? Bunning snag or bakery meat pie?

Speaker 34:47

Bakery meat pie.

Speaker 1 34:49

Uh climb up the Sydney Harbour Bridge or climb up the big banana in Coff's Harbour.

Speaker 34:55

Uh climb up the Sydney Harbor Bridge.

Speaker 1 34:57

Yeah, they're really not comparable, those two are Netflix or YouTube.

Speaker 35:05

Netflix.

Speaker 1 35:07

Like a schooner or a MIDI. Do people screen MIDI?

Speaker 35:10

Pine. Pine, either, a pine.

Speaker 1 35:12

Yeah, I know exactly right. Um library or bookshop.

Speaker 35:17

Bookshop.

Speaker 1 35:18

Uh Road trip or staycation.

Speaker 35:21

Staycation.

Speaker 1 35:23

Kylie or Danny Minogue. Kylie. So this one's made an appearance again. Ford or Holden. Holden. Uh suspicious drowning at Coogee Beach or a break and enter in Belmane.

Speaker 35:36

Break and enter in Bell Main. Sounds like a turtle.

Speaker 1 35:40

Cockroaches or cane toads. Oh, uh cockroaches.

Speaker 2 35:46

It's a trick question, that one. Yeah. That was excellent. Thank you so much, Sam.

Speaker 35:54

Oh no, it's always one. Sorry, I'm still in game mode again.

Speaker 2 35:57

I know you're ready for the next one. Look, I think we learn more about you all in the 30 seconds than we do in the whole rest of the interview. So thank you for taking it through.

Speaker 1 36:07

I do very much look forward to this bit of the end. So it's funny, these fast questions are usually the ones that reveal the most.

Speaker 2 36:13

So well, sadly it's time to wrap up. But um, Sam, I just wanted to thank you so much. It was such a brilliant interview. Um, you were just so generous with your answers and how much you shared with us. And um, I'm actually just even more impatient now to read the next day book. So thanks.

Speaker 36:31

My absolute pleasure, Helen Lelo. Thank you so, so, so much. I know, I know how much work goes into doing what you're doing. So thank you so much for just being the best interviewers and offering such a fantastic platform to be able for us to be able to speak like this. It's just so wonderful. I've had the best as time. Thank you.

Speaker 1 36:51

Yeah, no, thank you very much. We love chatting with you. Um and you know, it we talk about this quite a bit, but yeah, we do love being able to champion and celebrate the wonderful you know industry of Australian crime industry and genre of Australian crime writers. So um yeah, no, we love being able to do this regardless of how much work it is. Um and for everyone that's listening, we've popped all the details about Sam's book Haze uh and his podcast in the show notes, so you can check those out at your leisure. Um you can also follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and our website is www.killcitypodcast.com.au. Um so thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.

Speaker 2 37:33

Alrighty, that's us for this episode. Thanks for listening to the Kill City Podcast. We're putting the bookmark back in the book till next time, where we promise we'll pick up exactly where we left off.