SPEAKER_02 0:00

The Kill City podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of the lands we're on. Here in Melbourne, that's the Warongeri Wurorong people of the Kulin Nation. We honour their deep connection to storytelling, a tradition carried across more than 2,000 generations. Pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and we extend that acknowledgement to First Nations people listening today.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

This is part two of our conversation with the wonderful Sarah Bailey. We hope you enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

When I was reading the acknowledgments, because I always love reading authors' notes and acknowledgements at the end of books, at the end of this book, you actually gave your agent and your editor and your publisher a really great shout out. You called them a formidable trio of writerly women, which I just loved. So who supported you throughout the whole process. So can you tell us a little bit about what does working with a team like that actually look like day to day? And kind of how does it shape your books like the housemates to help them come together?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah, sure. It's um it's yeah, it's a really interesting relationship. And um, before I uh wrote a book, I had no knowledge of the world of publishing. I didn't know anyone who'd written a book and had no insight into it, so it really felt quite quite new to me. Um, and you know, coming from a very big corporate world, I I think I am quite good at working with other people. It's been very much a team sport my whole career, and this is sort of a bit of a combination of solo and team. So it's definitely not a day-to-day working relationship, like months will go by when I don't speak to my publisher and my editor if I don't have a book sort of out. Um so there's definitely big sort of stints of time where it's just me and my computer and my brain just desperately trying to make things make sense, and then there's kind of this flurry of collaboration where initially it's with my agent and I'll sort of say, you know, right, I think I'm gonna be in a position to send you the draft of my book in a couple of weeks. I just want to let you know now so that you can kind of plan when you want to read it, and then she will read it, and then we'll normally have a conversation about it. She'll send me some very minor kind of markups, but it's more that phone call that's the the helpful part where she talks through, I really liked this, this was a bit confusing for me. I wasn't quite sure if this is what you meant here, and so I start to sort of build a little list of problems because when someone says I wasn't quite sure about this or I didn't really understand this, that is code for this bit does not make sense. Um, and I think I've kind of learned you can explain things, but if you're having to explain it to someone and they're not understanding it from reading it, that is probably not them, it's probably you. So I'll normally make some changes based on what she's kind of said and what I've thought about based on the conversation we have, and then it goes to the publisher, the publisher will read it. She'll depends. I've kind of changed publishers, but I think similar working styles um will call and will speak to me about similar things, big themes, structural kind of um concerns, or things that they think are working really well, anything to do with character, have a conversation, and then it goes to the editor who will sort of almost do the business review. So we'll read it really methodically, we'll actually provide like a uh written summary of notes and things, and that's essentially the document that I kind of take as the the debrief, and then I I go back and I make any changes that I feel need to be made, and you know it's it's very much a you I can sort of do whatever I like with the feedback, but they've identified problems and I do need to address those problems. The way I do that is totally up to me. Sometimes they'll have ideas, sometimes they'll just say this is a problem. Um, but quite often I say, Oh, thank you for the problem identification. I like your idea, but this is why it won't work. This is the way I'm gonna solve it though. So, and then I hand it back in again and fingers crossed it's okay, and then it just goes into like a line edit, you know, sort of grammar uh proofreading process, which is much more just um, you know, getting it right. It's not sort of conceptual. So yeah, it is it's a it's a team, it's a big team project, and everyone's got the best interest of the book at heart, which is the thing that I think you've got to remind yourself. Um, it's always about the book being the best possible thing it can be. Um, but yeah, I've been really lucky that I've I've worked with um the same same agent, the same editor, and apart from just a change of publishing at an Alan Numwyn, I'm still in the same team of people at Alan and Numwine, and it's been great. So I've been really lucky. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Um, can I ask you a question about that? And this may not actually have a proper logical answer, or one that you can actually put a number on. How much improvement, if there were if you were going to put a percentage on it, how much improvement do you reckon your manuscript has from day one of the publisher getting it to day one of it being out as a book? Is it do you feel like it's a noticeable increase in the the quality of the the writing? Well not the sobriting, but the actual what become what comes out.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, definitely. And I think probably this would be different for different uh authors, but I think for me, it also depends a bit on the quality of the draft I've handed in. Um so I like the third Where the Dead Go, I rewrote a lot of that after I handed it in to the publisher because I think she had really good feedback and it was absolutely right. Things like I hadn't started the book in the right place, it was really slow for the first few chapters, there was an issue with the way it sort of resolved one of the subplots in the middle, um, the ending wasn't strong. Like I I went back and basically I don't know, I would say I rewrote 50% of it. Like the story didn't change and the characters didn't really change, but some of their sort of motivations needed to be much more emphasized, and I completely rewrote the start, completely rewrote the end. Um so I find that happens with me a bit. Sometimes my drafts, it's me figuring things out, and I kind of get to a point where I'm like, I I need to give this to someone else to read, and then I can have a break from it, and then when I come back and you give me your feedback, I'm sort of going to be able to see things now that you can see too. So it's been different with different books. I don't think Into the Night was not a huge amount of editing from memory, like that felt fairly straightforward. The Housemate was pretty good as well. Um click wasn't too bad, but yeah, it's just it's it's not it's not like it's getting easier or harder. I think some books just require me being pushed more, uh kind of on the things I actually know deep down, but for whatever reason it takes another go to get them out.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

So then we get to Body of Lies, so Gemma's fourth book. Um it kicks off with the great sort of what if idea. What if somebody had stolen a body from the morgue, which is a great premise. Um you wrote a chunk of it during COVID, I think. And then and you can really feel that pressure in the story as well. Sort of Gemma's back in Smithson, and then you throw several murders, a stolen corpse and an abandoned baby at her, um, or while she's getting ready to return to work after her Matt leaves with her second child. Um You've said this is the end of Gemma's story, which is a big call. Um, and it was certainly a very intense finale, that's for sure. Um I hope it's not the end of Gemma's story. Um, what have you learnt as a writer along the way that gave you the confidence to finish her story arc? And was it hard to say goodbye?

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, I think I I mean look, I I have said, you know, this is a standalone book about the housemaid, and then it ended up being a sequel, so I guess no one believes me now, but um I I am pretty sure I I am pretty sure that Gemma's um finished in terms of her story, just because I I don't know, I just think that that's that that arc, that ten years that I kind of spent with her felt about right, and it's kind of ten fictional years in the stories as well, and I I don't I just don't see I guess uh why I would want to keep pushing her character into another sort of scenario which inevitably kind of has to be you know riddled with with tension and problems and drama because that's kind of how crime works, and I think she's kind of done, but who knows? I guess she might you know have a cameo or something like that. Like I I would love to know that she's fine, but um I don't I just don't see a whole story being based around her again. And I think the reason why maybe I felt confident enough to do that is maybe perhaps I had written The Housemate and then I'd gone back and r finished that book for the audiobook, Final Act, and maybe by that point I sort of felt like oh I can write other characters, I've got other stories, uh, I can do this, and Gemma, I can sort of park and leave her alone. And I think by then too, the film the TV series was definitely moving forward, and so I could already sense that Gemma was going to sort of be immortalized in a different um you know channel, and I think I just thought, okay, that I think that's enough Gemma. So yeah, I feel good about where it ended. I think I I I I liked that final story for her. I think it felt you know high stakes, and I feel like I've left her in a place that feels appropriate. So yeah, we'll see. But I think that I think that's a nice ending for her.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Um now, keen to talk about your latest novel, Click, which is the second book in Ollie's World. Um, it's set in Melbourne just before COVID. Uh Backpack has found dead, more women go missing, and a killer sending photos straight to the media. You've got Ollie on the journalism side of things and Penelope Kibbs, a rookie detective trying to find her feet. Um I loved it. I thought it was really clever how you looked at completely different angles of essentially the same case, um, giving the story a really sharp split between how the media sees a crime versus how the police would be dealing with it. Um, we've we've heard from a bunch of authors, um, and everyone does this differently. Some use writing programs like Scrivener, some spread index cards um all over the kitchen table, and some just type into a big Word document. When you're switching between Ollie and Penn, what what helped you keep their voices and their stories straight?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Um wine? No, I don't know. It was pretty stressful actually. Um I I just use Microsoft Word, so I'm just one of those crazy people that just types into the abyss of white pages and hopes for the best. And I always find it difficult, and I always swear that I'm gonna work out how to make Scrivener work for me, and then I just start another book and don't do that. So I don't know, at some point I need an intervention, but um I think it's pretty hard to hold any book in your head or in word when it gets to sort of 50,000, 60,000 words. That's the point at which I always start to feel like the book's got the better of me and I'm not going to be able to do this one, and what am I doing? And that definitely happened with Click, but I think it's it's especially difficult when there's the dual narrative because you you you sort of you're not only holding up the whole story, you are trying to really weave this sort of special magical tapestry together, and it is difficult. So it it was hard, and I did have to print it out maybe more than I did with my other books and sort of tack back and forth between the two and just make sure that I would almost read Penn's version and then read Ollie's version and then work out what was happening in between. Um, but that was really kind of once I'd written the whole book and I was still mucking around with it. So yeah, it's not a glamorous process, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

I was going to ask about the whole printing things out. I was wondering whether you're what someone that needs to see that that stack of pages grow to sort of help push through.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

I think every now and again, like I don't print it out all the time, but I think there just gets a point where I I don't know, I I will sort of almost sense it that I'm like at some point this week I need to print this book out and read it because I can feel myself just not reading it properly on the screen. And so when I think I'm sort of revising and editing, I can almost tell that I'm not really deeply engaged in my own story, and I I need to sort of print it out and just mix it up for my eyes. So um, yeah, I just think at certain junctures in the process you kind of need to hold it physically in your hands and read it with your eyes. I don't know, maybe that's just me, but I think it does help my brain treat it more seriously or something.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

I um I loved click as well, but I had a um when I read it, there was actually quite a bit of unsettledness and fear and just the general way of the environment of the world, particularly with AI. And you wrote a really interesting op Ed in I think it was in the Age in the Sydney Morning Herald recently, which talked specifically about how unsettling AI is and especially the way that you know, in terms of telling what's true, what's not, in terms of the distorting of images and stories. So I just wanted to know if you would share with us a bit about your fears about AI and how it's going to change the world of literary fiction. I mean, not just about how creators, um, writers are creating their work, but also how they protect their ideas in copyright and even how readers experience novels now.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Yeah, uh, I'm it's I'm terrified of all of it. Um, but I'm sort of I'm sort of I'm always terrified of things, but I'm always sort of also weirdly optimistic about them as well, just in the sense that I kind of go, AI is weirdly still people, you know, it's people making decisions, and we I see I think we fall into a trap sometimes of being like, oh, it's big, big corporate, it's big business. And I'm like, no, it's just people working in jobs, and we need to make sure that we're you know asserting ourselves and telling these big companies what we want and what we don't want. Um, I think this is particularly insidious because it's just moved so quickly, and AI is kind of being inserted into everything, and it's being inserted into things that we don't have a choice really to avoid. Like now that all the search engines are AI empowered, it's like how do you use the internet without using AI? You kind of almost can't. So I I find that sort of stuff really worrying and frustrating. Um, I do think it is rewiring. I mean, this is sort of partly technology and partly AI. I think you know it's rewiring our kids' brains, and I'm worried about their attention spans, and I think no one can have long conversations anymore, and all these things deeply concern me. Um, but I also feel that people don't want to not be humans. So I I sort of have a deep sort of sense that surely we're going to fight back and ultimately be really clear that we don't want to sort of be plugged into a wall and turn into a robot. So I'm sort of I don't know, I get worried, but then I also get quite excited about the revolution that I'm hoping might come. Um and then I think in terms of your part of the question around writers and creative people, I don't know, I haven't perhaps felt as worried as I know some people in the industry have. I I suppose ultimately I just can't imagine governments completely enabling the collapse of creative arts and and sort of not putting some regulatory frameworks around the way that it works. I know that there's been sort of recent developments and it's it's too little too late, but I mean, no one I think wants to see the create the creative industry not exist. And you know, the way that that's gonna happen is by making sure that people can't just have all of their stuff stolen and no one's getting paid for it anymore. So I think it's gonna require a lot of creativity in government policy, in business, in law, in the way that we do things. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I welcome that kind of innovation like innovative thinking. Um, but I think the speed of it has really caught people by surprise. Um and yeah, I don't know, I might feel really differently. Maybe give me six months and all my stuff's been stolen and people are publishing books that sound like Sarah Bailey's, and maybe I'll yeah, be protesting and marching in the streets. I don't know, but um I I guess I have a faith that we will sort of need to move really quickly now and that we'll sort of manage to find a way to sort of put some guardrails in place and and make it sort of work for people. So um I'm I'm quite buoyed by what I see as being a bit of a comeback to events and real life experiences, and I I wonder if that is a little bit of a response to sort of people just sort of almost quietly protesting AI and technology because I I think there's been a lot of that in the last sort of I don't know, 12 months in particular, and that's I think really promising. So I'm hanging on to that as um maybe where the future might actually go. So fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

I'm keeping fingers and toes crossed as well, and I'm I'm a bit more on the optimistic side, and I think it's around young people today who are my kids are for one are very conscious of AI and very discerning about what they do, which I think is is really great. Um, but you've just given me the best segue ever to the next conversation topic when you talked about the importance of live events, because I agree a hundred percent. And a live event I was lucky enough to go to recently was um the Surf Coast Writers Festival, and at the Surf Coast Writers Festival, again I was very fortunate to pick a session which involved um yourself and um Josh Pamari because I want to talk about the He Read She Read podcast that you have both launched, I think, just at the end of last year. So um this has been an amazing um podcast, and I have to admit that I wasn't actually a huge podcaster before we started doing Kill City, so it was one of the first ones that I listened to. Um, but no, it is such a fun listen, it's great. Um, you guys cover everything from classics to contemporary reads. Um, you've kind of talked about older books, new books, I think all the way through to Josh, who has a newly invented category which is called competent commercial fiction, which I wrote down, which I'm still not convinced actually is a real genre. Um you're both really up front about what you like, what you don't like. There's a bit of Margaret and David in there, which we always enjoy. Um look, uh listeners really respond to that, I think, that honesty. Um we'll pop a link in our show notes for anyone who wants to have a listen to your podcast, and we actually have it listed as one of our favourite podcasts on our website. Um, so yeah, I want to know first up um where did the idea come about to do the podcast?

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Oh, thank you for all of that. It was yeah, it's been really fun actually. Um I'm I'm proud of us so far managing to get episodes out at least every fortnight. That's that's a big tick. Um, but it's been really nice to get together and and just talk about books and and reading and writing with with Josh. Um I wanted to launch a podcast when I decided that I was going to leave my full-time job at the end of last year, because I sort of thought it'd be nice to have something that's got a bit of routine and structure in it, because I'm so used to that. Josh and I always talk about books whenever we'd got together, and I just thought, well, we can just do it officially. So that's kind of how it came about, and then um yeah, we managed to speak to Spec Savers and get them to sponsor us, which was helpful, so it meant meant we could get a bit um professional with a producer because neither of us are very good with technology, so that was good, and and then we sort of just pulled it all together, and yeah, it's been really nice. I really like um choosing the books that we are going to read together and then talking to each other about it, but then also kind of extending that conversation out to other people and getting people to talk about what they liked or didn't like. Again, I love it when people don't agree with us, it's my favourite thing. Um, or when they do, it's great too. But it's just it's really nice to sort of just kind of normalize talking about books and reading, especially I think men and women discussing books together, because I just don't think that happens as much. Um, and then yeah, I think sometimes I'm really surprised by Josh's reaction to a book, and often I'll read it and think, oh, I don't know if he's gonna like this, and then he'll be like, No, I really liked that. And I'm like, Oh, I can't pick it. Um, so yeah, it's been really positive all round. It's been a really positive experience so far. So um, yeah, we'll sort of see what happens after this year.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

But it's been no, I agree, and I'll just one word atmosphere. Taylor Jenkins read that conversation, I think it's one. Of my favourites for anyone who's who's looking at the back catalogue. I saw it firsthand at the Writers Festival when you guys were recording live. I love that you came in with your laptop and your notes, and Josh just came in with nothing and just winged it. And I think the audience just really loved that and you can pick it up in your conversations. So I was just wondering, you have quite different personalities. How does that dynamic kind of play out when you're recording in terms of preparation or how you sort of structure it? Do you think that contrast kind of really works in your favour?

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Oh, probably. I yeah, he's annoying, and um I don't have a brother, but like I kind of do now, so that's good, I guess. Um, yeah, I am pretty organized and he's not, so that um we just play to our strengths, and I think that's the best way to go. So yeah, it's been it's been fun, and yeah, I think some of that sort of dynamic, I guess, probably does work its way into the show, and uh that can't be a bad thing, I guess. But yeah, it's been fun. I think it's like when you're editing a book, it's sort of you're there for the right reasons, and even though you have different perspectives on how to get there, that's the goal. So we keep that in mind. That's great, keep it up.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

And you've had some had some great guests as well, including Georgie Love or Georgia Love and Sammy Peterson talking about In Cold Blood by Truman Capote, and then uh Claire and Jesse Stevens talking about the names by Florence Knapp. Um, what's the reaction been like from listeners and where would you like to take the podcast next?

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Um, it's been I think it's been good. I mean it we didn't have really expectations, and I think that was probably smart. So it just feels like everything's kind of upside, and um, it's been great having people engage and say that they listen. Um, and sometimes I'm I go to an event or or you know something and people will sort of say, Oh, I love listening, and I'm like, Oh, I wouldn't have thought that you would listen. Like it's just it's really nice. Um, and I'm really pleased that we seem to have quite a lot of male listeners as well. Like that was sort of, I guess, a big part of wanting to do the show as a and I know it's not a gender thing, sort of necessarily, but just I guess broadening who's talking about books is really important to me, and so I really I really like that, and I think you know Josh probably invites you know more males to perhaps come into the show, and then they probably are introduced to a whole lot of books that they wouldn't have necessarily engaged with, and I I think that's great, and vice versa. And um, yeah, I don't know the the guests I think people have really liked hearing from as well because they're all quite different. We we do try to uh invite guests on that just we think are going to bring a completely different perspective to the conversation and that we want to hear from too and um chat chat with books about. So yeah, it's kind of like a big curating project as well. Like what book are we going to read? What guests are we going to have? What are we going to talk about? And I really I really love that sort of almost editorial process. So it's been yeah, been really fun and rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

I know you're going to talk about the land, Maggie Farrell, but I'm going to read it first before I listen to you guys. So uh we like to do a couple of wind-down questions because we know we've sort of taken you through the gorilla room. We appreciate um how much time you spent with us, but we thought just before we go, we'd like to end on a bit of a lighter note. So we have a question that we do ask all of our authors. If you're stranded on a desert island and you can only take one Australian crime fiction novel with you, which would be the book that you want the company?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

I feel like I should choose one of Chris Hammer's books because they're so long that it would be like an if you know, it would be a good choice because I'd be able to read it for longer. Um I do like his books very much. Um, I don't know. Uh I think if it wasn't Australian, I know what my answer would be, but Australian is more difficult. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

I really, I do I really give us an international one as well if you like.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Okay, well, if it was international, I'd take Tana French's in the woods. Um, I just think that's my one of my favourite crime books, sort of, ever, and I think she's incredible. So that would be the book I would take. And that's big as well, so that would be good. It would keep me company for a long time. And well, Australian, I mean I I I'm about to start reading Michael Rowotham's new Tell Me Something True. So I I I I need to read that, so maybe I'd take that so I can get it in before the podcast episode. I love the practical response.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

But I like I'm I'm the same. I would take the longest book, I I think length, and then it's you know, if you're stuck there forever, you you're not reading it quite as many times, so you're not getting a sick of it. Perfect. Yeah, exactly. Um all right, so before we let you slip away, we've got one last bit of fun. It's our rapid fire round, the quick and the curious. So I'm gonna throw a bunch of either-or choices to you, um, and you go with whatever pops into your head. Um, there's no pressure, there's no wrong answers. Um okay, you ready to go?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Good cop or bad cop?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Bad cop.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

One episode at a time or binge the whole season?

SPEAKER_01 27:24

One episode at a time.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Sweet or salty?

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Salty.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Paperback or audiobook?

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Paperback, but both would be my honest answer.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Um this one's brought us undone a few times. Bunning snag or bakery meat pie?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Bakery meat pie.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Uh library or bookshop?

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Bookshop for buying like I like to work from the library, so that's where I do a lot of my writing, but bookshop from like a leisure-pleasure point of view.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Uh climb a mountain or jump out of a plane.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Climb a mountain.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Magpie or bin chicken?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

I I know you asked this question. Bin chicken, it's actually my nickname, so I have to choose bin chicken. I know. That's what my partner might be. I don't know. My partner calls me bin chicken. I don't know, it's annoying. It's all Australian.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

I know. We might have to know what bin chickens are, Lee. For our international It's not it's not great.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

I can look them up. It's not great.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Lost my way after that. Um Netflix or YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Netflix.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Vegemite Toast or Avo Smash?

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Probably Avo Smash. If I can have feta with it, that would be good.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Here we go again with Helen's Bogan question. Ford or Holden?

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Ford.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Now, as a parent of young children, um or a young child, um, Bluey or play school at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Bluey at this current era of parenting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Beach house or mountain cabin.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Beach house.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Chris or Liam Hemsworth.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Chris.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

And then final one, AFL or soccer.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

AFL. I feel like I you guys now need to tell me what that means.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Look, Sarah, thank you so much. This has been such a fun, fun interview for us. We've um really enjoyed hearing you um spend so much time with us. You're yeah, you just were so generous in terms of um your ability to sort of think through our our questions and give us really interesting and intelligent responses. So um we really appreciated the time that you spent with us today. Thank thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

It was my pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

No, thank you so much. We have love chatting to you. Um and for everyone listening, we've popped uh all of Sarah's books or links to all of Sarah's books, plus a link to he read, she read uh in the show notes. So you can choose your own adventure from there.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Alrighty, that's us for this episode. Thanks for listening to Kill City. We're putting the book mark back in the book till next time.