SPEAKER_02 0:54

Now I've been waiting patiently, but I really want to talk to you about your latest book now, Sea Light First, because it's the exciting news. So it's a big shift from your Kate Miles series. Now it's your first standalone psychological thriller. I was very lucky to, um, well, we tend to say advanced copy, which is our first advanced copy, which was so exciting to get in the post real life book, because I'm usually a cool girl. And I was like, oh, a book, a book. Um, this was amazing, so dark, so twisty, very different type of writing and tension, um, in terms of a quick plot summary. But at the heart of this, there are two sisters, Dev and Cal. Now, their relationship's already strained when Dev's life really starts to unravel. And we see the story again, you've used multiple viewpoints, Dev, her mum Rupert, Cal, and her love interest Nate. And those shifting perspectives really give the book a really, oh goodness, tense and unsettling sort of layered feel where you're kind of never really sure who's telling the full truth. So, how much fun was it for you to step away from Kate and dive into something completely different? And had this sort of been bubbling away in the back of your mind for a while?

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Um, it wasn't bubbling away, but I would say at the end of tipping point, I was really ready for something else. Um, because I think Helen, you mentioned that, you know, like sort of it was published 2022, 23, 24, but really I've lived with those characters for a much longer time. So, like that, you know, my head was kind of full of that cast of characters for a very long time. So, so I like I felt like I needed a break from from the Kate Miles universe. Um, and and I again with each of my books, I've like tried to do something I haven't tried before. Um so you know, like I I tried it a little bit of a sort of pull the pull the rug from under the reader twist in in um in tipping point, and so and that gave me the kind of the the appetite to really kind of push that side of things and really try that kind of misdirection um big twist type book. Um so I really wanted to try that. So, so we we we we um She Light First, it had a number of I guess firsts for me. It was my first psychological suspense. Um, but but I also as you as you mentioned, I wanted to create that really claustrophobic, uneasy feeling for the reader or reading experience for the reader. And in order to do that, I felt like I had to really focus on a small cast, um, which is very different to the Kate Miles stories, because essentially with Kate Miles, I mean, being a detective series, you you had access to like essentially anti-town, you know, with Kate, her family, the police station, you know, all the suspects, their families, the victims, like it just, you know, and you basically built up anti-town through that. This was the exact opposite. I I wanted to like bring it back, bring it back to, you know, four key characters. And yes, that there are a number of sort of other um side characters around them, but it's those four key characters and their four point of views um which really lead the reader through this story. Um, and and the the the idea behind the story was that you get one point of view and and and and you know at the start it's baby and she's taking you through that story, and then you and then you get Kal's point of view, and suddenly it entirely changes what you've just uh what you've just uh learned or what you've just read about. Um this this story is very hard to talk about without spoilers, like it's a lot of spoilers.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

We try really hard to have no spoilers on this show.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yes, absolutely. So um, but that was that was deliberate, you know. Like I wanted, you know, because I because I again I'm really interested in this idea about truth, um, and what is truth, you know, like you know, is there ever anything called the objective truth or you know, apart from you know scientific, you know, or maths or something like that, but but you know, the truth as people see it, is there an actual objective truth and or is it just the version we tell ourselves or you know the truth, um, you know, the story that we remember? Um, and so I wanted each point of view to kind of push back on the previous point of view, um, and and and to kind of turn that kaleidoscope a little bit more, and you go, oh, announcing a different thing. Um, and suddenly your interpretation of the events kind of change a little bit, and then you get the next person's point of view, and you're like, it changes a little bit more again. Uh, and so you're never quite it's that kind of shifting sands sort of situation where um you never quite know the reader never quite knows where they are until the end, and and it gives me that opportunity to provide those that surprise after surprise after surprise. Um so yeah, this it was it like it took a lot of work, like genuinely, like it was um this was the sort of in terms of writing, I think it was the sort of the longest period, like for a long time it wouldn't come together, like it really, you know, it took a lot structurally um for it to work. Um, and I got a lot of help actually from writer, writer friends who who really helped me with kind of feedback and and read kind of early, kind of much more sluggish draught. Um, you know, and and and uh so it took it took it took a it took a few goes, but um, you know, I'm really like yeah, I'm really happy with the results.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

As you should be, it's fantastic. And look, one of the things I um I sort of thought about as at reading the book was with Kate uh books, you always sort of had that quiet thread of her being Sri Lankan Australian, but it wasn't something that was sort of front and centre of the books. But I think that was quite different in July first, because I think you really leant into sort of representing these diverse voices and kind of more of the reality of multicultural Australia, which I think is even more important in today's world. And I thought, particularly for women and sort of the subtle ways that bias can sort of shape how people are seen and treated. And I was just curious to know if that was something that you actually wanted to explore more deeply in this book, or did it kind of emerge sort of naturally because of the way the story unfolded?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah, no, absolutely. I I felt like with with this book, um, because I had I made the decision to kind of explicitly have a uh a South Asian cast, you know, like it's majority South Asian cast. So uh because of that, I had the opportunity to kind of explore identity and kind of family expectations and cultural expectations through a number of characters because there were some of them were older characters, some of them were younger characters. Sorry, I'm losing my boy.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Let's do a hydration break. We're all gonna have a we're all having a hydration break.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

That's so funny. Yeah, so it really gave me the opportunity this book um because I had sort of sort of explicitly gone into a full cast of um South Asian characters, I was able to kind of explore those things through multiple, you know, characters' perspectives. So it wasn't just sort of Kate Miles' perspective of identity, um, but rather it was Cal's, you know, Davies and um and Rupert's as well, um, as well as some of those kind of side characters. So, yeah, so I got to kind of explore that a little bit more. And I thought, you know, with with um given that they were sort of like the sisters were in their 20s, they're single, they're young South Asian women, I specifically wanted to give space for those South Asian young female characters to be messy and vulnerable, uh, because the overwhelming expectation on South Asian women is to be good. Um, and so I wanted, if I was going to write a um a book that explored younger South Asian women, I wanted to give them space to be messy, to be vulnerable, to be having sex, which is very important for me to be for them to be having sex on the page. Um, because again, in you know, things like sort of intimacy and sort of um you know relationships and and uh pleasure and those kind of things are not really openly discussed in in you know South Asian families. Obviously that's changing, but you know, um so I wanted for my two South Asian young female characters um to sort of have that opportunity to be in their bodies in this book um and to be messy, uh, because it's it is that age where you know you're feeling big emotions, and it's that it's that kind of age where it's a combination of extreme confidence and risk taking, as well as sort of you know, excruciating um self-doubt, you know. You know, so it's like sort of the both both sides of yourself because you're trying to find your place in the world um as a young person. Um, and so it's the time of your life where you're making mistakes um and and sort of making sometimes doubtful choices, um, you know, and and and you're hurting people and you're getting hurt. Uh, and I wanted all of that mess and that vulnerability um, you know, to be expressed through Cal and Davy. You know, like I really, you know, I I felt that I I don't think they're particularly likable characters, but I adored writing them because, you know, like they are genuinely they are the at the opposite end of the spectrum to Kate. I felt like Kate is very much like she's she's in a different part of her her life stage, right? Um, and so she's you know, and as a police officer, she has a very much a sense of her kind of moral compass and and she she has lived life and she's she's carrying the weight of of life. You know, she's she's got kids, she's got responsibilities. The the you know, Cal and Davy are at the opposite end of the spectrum. They're young, single, um, and and sort of are exper are are kind of hurtling into life, and I and I wanted to write about that.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

And there's a real truth to it, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah, yeah. They feel very raw, they feel very raw um characters, but I but I wanted I yeah, I I feel like you know, sort of in fiction and in real life, sort of the good South Asian girl has had its day, and you're not gonna find good girls in in this book. You're gonna find real girls. Yeah, exactly. I mean, they're him be like that, you know, that in the end that's that's that's all I want. Um, and so I feel like I just I just wanted them to have the space to be messy, basically. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Now I haven't had a chance to read the advanced copy yet because somebody, Helen, has been holding it.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Um I've got a post Australia Post, I'm sure I've put it in the post. You just haven't got it yet.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Oh that old chest note. Um but um early reviews, and from what she's told me, people are responding to it really positively. Um, how have you found the reaction so far? And um has stepping into the psychological thriller space made you want to not write another one in that particular genre?

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah, look, I mean, um definitely so the next one I'm writing is also a standalone, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily a psychological suspense. Um I always like, yeah, so I kind of go into it sort of with a, you know, with kind of something I want to explore rather than necessarily like a genre person, you know what I mean, like a sub-genre or whatever. So I'll see how that goes. I don't want to say too much about it because I also find I I felt like I talked too much too early about um She Like First before, you know, when I was doing the publicity stuff for tipping point, and it kind of sucked the joy out of the writing for a little while. And so I was like, no, I'm not gonna tell anyone anything about what I'm working on next. I'll just try and get it on the page first. But um I've forgotten what the actual question was now, sorry.

unknown 13:35

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Um the ri the the reaction so far.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Oh, the reaction, yeah, sorry, sorry. Um so yeah, so like I felt like um with this, um the some of the early reviews have been uh incredible. Um actually when when the arcs went out for um for um um you know to get like sort of lovely blurbs for your cover, um a a a writer friend called me, so Cass Moriarty, his amazing Brisbane writer, and she she was like, This this feels like it's been written as a completely different person. What have you been doing? So I I love that reaction, you know, because I feel like um yeah, like I really tried something new. Um, and I loved that she had that reaction, and I hope that readers um are you know are willing to come with me on that journey. Like, you know, the people who did enjoy um Kate's stories, I hope they're willing to come with me on this journey and and read this this this new style of book. Um and yeah, because because because for me, the you know, I mean, like I have the great privilege of being able to do this sort of full-time, and for me, sort of the what brings me onto the page, back to the page, is is to to kind of challenge myself and push myself to try something I hadn't tried before, even if I kind of fail. Like I just sort of, you know, like I just want to push myself to try and okay, well, I didn't do that, and that's what brings me onto the page, and that's what creates that enthusiasm to come back and and create something new. Um, so therefore, like I felt like well, I hadn't done done this before, so I really wanted to try to see if I could pull it off. Because there's, I mean, um, Helen, you will know there's a there's a very big twist in this, and for a very long time I wasn't sure. Yeah, it leaves the seal, but like I felt like you know, for a very long time I I wasn't sure if I could pull it off. Um and you know, obviously only the re the you know only the readers can say if if I have pulled it off. Uh, but so far, yes, the early reader reaction has been I think there was one that said, um, what was it? Uh like the the my my head head blown or something. I don't know, she said something like that. So you know, um yeah, my head blew off. I don't know, there was some really cool line which I've course now forgotten, but uh but yeah, I was like, yep, that's that's yes, that's the reaction I want, you know, my head blown, you know, so that that's the reaction I want.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Like the exploding head emoji. Yeah, exactly. I can see it exactly, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So when you when you decided to try this different genre, so who did you share the idea first with? Like, did you talk to your editor or your agent or sort of go straight to the publisher?

SPEAKER_01 16:31

I was actually off contract for this one um because I wanted to take a little bit more time with this because I knew it wouldn't come easily, like it wouldn't necessarily maybe be as quick as the Kate Miles. Not not that the Kate Miles books were ever like super quick or anything, but you know, I mean I had I knew the characters and sort of like you know, I had I had a bit of a foundation to kind of build on. Um so who did I tell first?

unknown 16:56

I don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Um maybe my husband. Like, I don't know while I was writing it. I I don't know if I um yeah. Actually, oh no, I did tell, yeah, no, I did tell a couple of friends. Actually, yes. I thought I I probably I think I told Haley's crippling at first. That's right. But the the problem with that, again, Helen, having read it, you know that once you say the twist out loud, then you basically take that person off the list of early readers. Because once you know that twist, they can't be your first readers. So that I actually screwed myself up because I normally do get a Haley as one of my first readers. And I was like, well, I'm so now can't go to you because you know what's gonna happen. So that kind of screwed me up a little bit as well. So, but yes, um I do remember having a conversation with her about it and taking her through that first scene and how I wanted to write it, and I remember she said to me, Yep, that's a story, you you could definitely write that. That you know, that would work. So um, but yeah, so I'd say it's probably Haley. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Ah, excellent. Well, speaking of people who kind of giving you advice and opinions, I um am a big reader of um author acknowledgements, and I loved reading in one of your acknowledgements that you'd finally given in to pressure from your sister-in-law to include a dog in Great Miles books. And I think it's a boof in tipping point I was trying to work out that maybe think about your readers more broadly. So, in terms of um, how do you feel about getting feedback um from readers and is there anything that people have said to you that sort of really stayed with you? I don't know if there's anything surprising or really funny or kind. People we do get from authors that apparently you can't kill dogs in your books because people always take that very badly. But any any other feedback you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Yeah, I don't I actually don't agree with that adage because I reckon kill all the dogs in books, don't kill them in real life. That's that's my take on this whole thing, right? Like we should be able to, particularly in crime fiction, explicitly explore the worst parts of humanity in crime fiction. Like that is the place to do it. Um, I want to explore it in words, in fiction, not in real life. I do not want to do it in real life. So let's kill all of the dogs in books, do not hurt animals. In fact, same hurt people in real life. You know, if humans could do that, I think we'll be in a much better place. So I'm sorry, that's my little rant about that. Um but um to answer your question, like the the feedback on um Kate, like I actually found that quite overwhelming, like how how much readers really um saw themselves in Kate and and how much they took her to heart. Like that was actually quite like a humbling experience to to because because I finally kind of it made me realize, oh, like hang on, this is the same as when I love authors and when I can't wait for the next book in the series, and when I like read from end to end, you know, like oh, like I am that person for someone else. Wow, that like that was genuinely, you know, you know, head head explosion emoji. Um, because yeah, you never think that you would do you would be that for for a reader, you know, because um because I've always only been on the receiving end of like experiencing that with other people's work. So yeah, so that was amazing, yeah. So I think I think the people who who love the Kate Mars series love it because of they really see themselves and their sisters and their mothers and their their friends in her, you know, and in that life, you know, and and also in her husband as well, you know, because I because I that I really wanted to show a real marriage where things weren't always working, but they were kind of a unit. They were they were doing it together, they weren't always successful, you know, and sometimes you know they were miscommunications, etc. But they were genuinely trying um their best to kind of get through what is always a really difficult period in any marriage, you know, with young kids. So so I felt like people really saw themselves in that book. So I've I've um I always find that like genuine response really humbling because I was like, oh, okay. But yeah, no, right, yeah. Now I love it.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

So with all that um feedback in mind, readers, editors, publishers, um does it feel like your the world of your books start taking on a life of their own? And the second part is uh are you getting much in the way of people asking for a continuation of Kate Miles in the future?

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah, I mean this is uh yeah, I always get that. Please do another Kate Miles. I mean and and

SPEAKER_02 22:00

You gave us a clue. You gave us a, you know, she might do a different career. I didn't feel that you'd closed the door on it just yet.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

The thing with Kate, the thing with Kate is that I was in a very specific period of my life where I was, you know, like Kate Myers was all about sort of younger managing work balance with with that younger family. And I felt like that trilogy really said everything I wanted to say about young kids, if you know what I mean. Like my kids are now older, and I feel like even when I came to Tipping Point, I was like, oh god, what do eight-month-up babies do again to Google? You know, like because even just the few years it was it wasn't as sort of um close to my skin as it as it was, you know, in in the previous book. So I feel like with each, like certainly to to follow it chronologically or to follow it like you know in in the close spacing that I did in in that first three books, it wouldn't work because genuinely, like my kids are much older now. And I as a parent and as a human being, and I'm I'm getting interested in in issues relating to older people, like you know, to older kids. Um I'm I'm far more interested now in in the world that they will now face with the internet age and with consent and with you know like them navigating um relationships and you know all of that, right? Like I'm way more interested in that space. So if Kate comes back, her kids will be much older. Like suddenly there'll be like a fancy of gap. And you know, um, you know, um, and you know, I'll I'll pick up her story much later on in life because um like I feel like I've said everything I want to say of Kate in that really pressure cooker period of her life. Um, yeah, so at the moment I'm enjoying sort of writing what this this next one I'm writing again is a standalone, um, and again I wanted to sort of um explore a very specific kind of issue, and so I'm kind of leaning into that. Um, and it doesn't necessarily need a police officer, you know, um to to guide that story, so therefore I feel like there's no point inserting a police officer where there doesn't necessarily you know, it it might happen that that book is not finished, so maybe a police officer will turn up, but I'm I'm just saying it's not something um I don't yeah, I I want to the stories come from a place like of of a character or or issue I'm interested in rather than sort of the first decision being, oh well this will be a Kate book, you know what I mean? Like like yeah, so so I always feel like if I want to if to to honour those stories and for for there to be a story good enough to stand next to those three books, um, it would have to be like a story that I genuinely want to tell about Kate rather than a story that I go, okay, people want another Kate book, so I'll write another Kate book. Like I don't I don't want it to be that decision. Um, so yeah. So Kate might come back, but at the moment I am not writing a cake book.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

We will wait very patiently for what you do next and we will be excited. I feel like I have to apologise for that because so many people are fucking. I think I think what we we might forget as readers that um you you actually as a writer need to enjoy what you're doing. So if you know you have to get pleasure and joy from what you're writing about. So no, which means you'll it'll be a much better um book for us to read anyway. So I think that's all good, and no apologies needed whatsoever. Now I think we've grilled you about your books long enough, and we're thinking of just winding down with a couple of lighter questions. So the first one is if you could borrow any writer's brain for a day just to see how it works, because you did talk about your brain, but if you could have someone else's, whose would you pick?

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Oh, I would pick Ashley Collegium Blunt's brain, because she um, as you know, she she's the uh amazing um writer of Lightfellow's Eye, the brand new book that's come out. Um, but she she she actually really helped me with um um with um Chi Light First. She she has she's really good at sort of theme level. You know, she has this incredible mind where she can break down a novel to its you know its components, like really break it down. I mean, I still struggle when people go, oh, where's your turning point and where's your freaking whatever fact and I don't know, whatever the things are. Um, like I struggle with all of that stuff. I mean, it it will be there and presumably I'll be able to find it. But you know, I don't think of storying that way, but I'm up, but I reckon it'd be so much easier if I did, you know, if I had if I just had an idea of what it should look like, and then kind of fill in the blanks. And she's um she she just has this really detailed and very sort of micro um story brain that can really just kind of break apart scene by scene, chapter by chapter, act by act, and then eventually, you know, whole novel. Um, you know, so she's just yeah, she's really good at that. So yeah, for one day I would like to have a brain, and then I'll be like, oh crap, and then I'll see all the faults in my mainstream, it'll scare me to death and I'll go back to my brain.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Well, that that's why it's just a hypothetical, but you know, it's good, it's good to think about. All right. Now you're actually stranded on a desert island, and you can only take one Australian crime fiction novel with you. So, what's the book that you'd want for company?

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Oh, Australian crime fiction novel. Look, I will have to go back to my um, I think the original novel that brought me into Australian crime fiction. Um, and there's a little ode to that actually in July First as well, which is the wonderful Peter Temple. Um, and and it was The Broken Shore, and that was the book that that brought me into um, that was my gateway drug to Australian crime fiction. So I I would I'll pick that book. I'll pick the the great, the late great Peter Temple.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Excellent, excellent choice. And somebody else that we have interviewed has said the exact same book.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

So there you go, the perennial favourites and yeah, I mean Peter Temple, I genuinely like he was like, yeah, there's a particular, I don't know, cadence, and there's a particular the the way he describes the world, and I don't know, that's just you know, and in his words, his his sentences are quite kind of short and sharp, and they're just but there's so much in it. And he often does sort of this he often almost just lists, I don't know, like you you'd read a paragraph and it's like kind of lists of descriptions, but it's just it's just the way he writes, it's it's incredible, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Alright, so before we let you escape, we've got one last thing, and it's purely for fun. It's our rapid fire round, the quick and the curious. Um, I'll throw you a bunch of either-or choices and just go with uh whatever pops into your head. Um we're back in full crime and mystery territory this time because I I took it somewhere in the sport off the cuff last week and Helen dragged me over the coals for it. So back to back to crime and mystery.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Oh yeah, I wouldn't do well in crime. I don't talk about legal.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

All right, uh up for the challenge.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Okay, locked room mystery or small town secret.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Lock lock room.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Cold case or fresh crime scene.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Um cold case.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Amateur sleuth or seasoned cop?

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Seasoned cop, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Twist ending or slow burn?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Oh twist ending, of course.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Uh who did it, how they did it, or why they did do it.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Why they do it.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Uh Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Pyro.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

I would have to go Hercul Pyro. I I love him so much.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Uh creepy neighbor or charming stranger. Red herrings or straight clues.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Red herrings. Why did I say it as a question? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Um rural noir or coastal crime.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Uh rural noir.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Uh truth digger or chaos magnet.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Um god, okay, chaos magnet.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

And I like this new one you've put in this way, Callan. Breakthrough clue from the local barista or the nosy next-door neighbour.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Barista. So much fun doing these.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Umreliable narrator or rock solid witness.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Oh, unreliable narrator. All the way my absolute favourite device of crime fiction.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Excellent. Uh crime boss or lone wolf villain?

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Oh, lone wolf villain.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Uh final showdown or the quiet reveal.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Uh oh. That's a good one. I'm gonna go quiet reveal.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

And the final one, Miss Scarlet in the library with the dagger or Reverend Green in the billiard room with the lead pipe.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Miss Scarlet. Oh, thank you, Janine.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Always so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Never disappoint. I'm trying to work out. I reckon every single author is an Agatha Christie fan so far that we've had on.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah. I mean, I it's saying that I love Sherlock Holmes as well. Actually, I don't know if you can see in the in the top shelf are all my Agatha Christie's. And and also the complete works of Sherlock Holmes is right there as well. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally, so it's it's yeah. So you've um you've you've tapped into sort of, yeah. I mean, I I grew up on those, you know. It's it's I I remember and my my brother was such a huge um Sherlock Holmes fan, so I used to kind of read it after he'd finished and everything. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Well, thank you very much. Um, and for everyone listening, we've popped all the books we mentioned today in the show notes so you can have a proper browse later on. Um, it's been fantastic chatting to you.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Thank you, Janica. And I've learned a couple of new phrases that I may be trying to pull out in later episodes because now I know there's a vomit draft. It's luggage draft. So I maybe I'll have that as the either or question. Luggish draft or vomit draft. That was fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Excellent. I'm glad I've uh helped out a little bit. Um, thank you so much, Lee and Helen. This has been amazing. I I loved it. Thank you so much for you know supporting Australian crime fiction and yeah, just for taking the time to do this with me. So I really appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

No worries at all. We're very excited for your new book, too, which will be out by the time this episode goes um goes live. So congratulations on on that and your books to date and your career. It's um that it's been that fantastic, and they've provided readers um much joy. So thank you very much, and thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Thank you. All right, that's us for this episode. Thanks for listening to Kill City. We're putting the bookmark back in the book till next time, and we promise the next chapter is going to be worth sticking around for.