Helen 0:00

The Kill City Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of the lands we're on. Here in Melbourne, that's the Wurundjeri Woi Worong people of the Kulin Nation. We honour their deep connection to storytelling, a tradition carried across more than 2,000 generations. Pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging, and we extend that acknowledgement to First Nations people listening today.

January 0:51

The long listing, the ritual long listing, that was just beyond. I think I probably would have given up, actually, if it hadn't been for the um long listing in that. That was also the lady detective. That was all I had, that was all I'd written. And um I was on Instagram Doom Scrolling late one night, and somebody posted a photo. Oh, I've just submitted to the ritual prize, and I was like, oh, what's that? And I looked it up and I was like, oh, okay, I could do that. And then I looked and I was like, oh, okay, it's 11 o'clock now, and the cutoff is 12 o'clock tonight. Well, let's go. So I just frantically tapped out, like really kind of tapped into that creative energy. And yeah, to find out that I long listed, that was the first time that I was like, oh, maybe I can do this. As in it's all right, my content, my ideas.

Helen 1:48

No, that's um that's that's really cool. And I have to admit, you've just and every now and again we do go down rabbit holes, but choose your own adventures just brought back a big piece of my childhood because they were fantastic. My daughter was a bookworm, particularly younger in sort of primary school, and we actually went on a hunt and found a choose your own adventure in a secondhand bookshop. It's still in her bookshelf.

Leigh 2:17

So I was fascinated to try and figure out what had what had happened. Um and I reckon I've still got one because I was telling my 12-year-old about it. Um, and I'm pretty certain I've got um at least one in a box somewhere from stuff that I from my parents. Yeah. But it was a fascinating little insight into a into a the brand and the actual publishing house that did it. Because they were just phenomenal as far as the success went at certain periods. So um bizarre that all three of us sort of referencing choose your own adventure and did you 2026?

January 2:56

2026. Did you read Christopher Pike? Because he seemed to have been choose your own adventure were like the gateway into Christopher Pike.

Leigh 3:04

I didn't know. No, okay.

Helen 3:07

I was a massive Agatha Christie fan.

January 3:09

Oh yeah, well every thriller ever written is um inspired by Christopher Pike. Agatha Christie is inspired by Christopher.

Helen 3:19

Poor Leigh, he does the show notes for these podcasts, and there's going to be so so many things in the show notes for this episode. We're gonna have to add in Christopher Pike, choose your own adventure, Agatha Christie, all of your books.

Leigh 3:31

No, I'm I'm up for it. That that that is all good. So that probably brings us to the sort of the people that populate your books. Um, your characters, it feels like they've lived whole lives before we even meet them. So, what's the first thing you need to know about a character before you can write them?

January 3:51

Oh, that's a really good question. I think I need to know who hurt them. I need to know what their triggers are and their traumas, which informs why they make the decisions they make in the book. And so, yeah, I think that's the best compliment I've ever received is that you feel like they've lived whole lives beforehand, which I guess in my head they have. Um, but yeah, just that to keep them 3D, people, bad people or people that do bad things, they're not the villains in their own stories, they really do. And if you've ever heard someone tell you a story, but you've already heard the other person's side first, and how people, oh well, she said this and she did this, and you're like, Oh, it's funny, she told it a different way. Um, it's it's just so interesting to me how two people can witness the same thing and feel really different, and people aren't doing things to be mean, maybe they are, but usually there is a trauma or a trigger or a reason why they've been mean, I hope.

Leigh 5:04

Um like when you're writing characters whose lived experiences are different from your own, um, how do you make sure the characters have got that sort of grounding in um human emotion and and reality, if that makes sense? Yeah, it does make sense.

January 5:25

Yeah, no, it does. I think you just I plug into myself because I experience complex human emotions, and um I think that every character is an extension of me in the way that it's me putting it on the page, it's me deciding what this person's going to do or respond, and just um trying to make it from a lived experience. So I'm you know, I've never been a murderer, I'm not saying it's off the cards in the future, who knows? But you know, tapping into like what what how can you get so full of rage or anger or feelings that you would go and do those things and just yeah, trying to understand people, I guess, which I love.

Leigh 6:18

Yeah, okay.

January 6:19

As a Pilates instructor, I'm like a hairdresser, I hear it all.

Helen 6:25

Such a rich, fertile ground for story ideas and characters.

Leigh 6:32

And there is something with hairdressers and Pilates instructors when my my wife was telling me about this the other day, like the the connection, the physical connection piece has a way of making people open up. So um it's a good analogy. Um so and character names, which is obviously you know a totally different conversation, but how do you land on character names? And are you know are you someone that knows the names of your characters straight away, or do you have to live with them for a while?

January 7:05

Um so I'm currently writing a manuscript where there's one person who doesn't even have a name, and that's the first time that's ever happened to me. He's been Tim, he's been Dane, he's been Matt, um, he's been Jords. And that's the first time, and that maybe tells me that I need to just get a little get to know him a little bit more. Um, without being too woo-woo, the names tend to come to me with their characters. So before when I said that I get the the scene and what kind of character is this, as I get to know them, the name just sort of appears with them, and then they're stuck with it.

Leigh 7:47

So would you suggest your characters arrived fully formed, or are they revealing themselves as you write?

January 7:57

They come to me fully formed, and I think that's because I do so much thinking about them before I put them on the page, and there is a lot of things that don't make it to the page, but I am really I know who these people are, or characters, they're not real.

Leigh 8:13

Yeah, and you know, some writers say their characters start making decisions without them. Does that happen to you?

January 8:19

It does. Oh my gosh, sometimes you're writing it like, oh, well, I did not expect you to say that. And sometimes you have to rein them back in because they want to start, you know, doing all sorts of crazy things. But yeah, sometimes they do surprise you, which makes me sound like I'm mentally ill, I know.

Helen 8:37

No, not at all. Just fertile imagination, the most important thing for a writer to have. So good. Yeah.

Leigh 8:46

Um, and we talked about research before, um, and obviously it's very easy to go down the down the rabbit hole. Um, what's the sort of you're in this sort of planning research phase, what's the strangest or most unexpected place that research on character has taken you?

January 9:06

I mean, the truth is always stranger than fiction. I will say that. Most characters are parts of people that I've experienced or experiences I've experienced, or you know, people will say things and you think, mmm, I'm gonna put that in a book because that's so weird. Um, I do think with my sister's shadow, I was trying to research twins a lot to kind of get that relationship, understand that relationship. And I came across it's um done by the government. So when I tell people about the study, they're like, but who was running it? ABC had this documentary, and they had all of these twins come on and share their experiences, and these people are being studied by Harvard Medical, and a man, an Australian man, had a flash, flashing eye, and he was having really terrible headaches, and so all of the symptoms of a brain tumour. He went for a brain scan and they found absolutely nothing. And he woke up at 3 a.m. As he woke up to call his brother, his brother had called him and he answered the phone just as he went to call and it's his twin brother, and he said, I just had this terrible dream, and he said, It's you. It's you. I had the same dream, and they had met each other in a dream, mirrored each other, and one had said, My eye hurts, and it's you have a brain tumour. And the twin went and had a scan, and he had a brain tumour. You wouldn't believe it, right? You wouldn't believe it. But these people are being studied because these things happen.

Leigh 10:56

It's it's incredibly freaky, isn't it? I'm an only child, but I've actually got twins and and uh uh we've got three kids but we've got twins and a third. I'm fascinated by the connection between siblings, even before we were talking about you know the the twin characters in your book. I find it intriguing just watching their relationships because it's so foreign to me. Like I just don't understand it. My wife's one of four, I'm an only child, so I'm surrounded by lots of sibling relationships that I quite quite find fascinating. So um, but that is just that is just next level.

January 11:30

So crazy.

Leigh 11:33

Um so obviously writing is writing a novel is very complex. Um how do you keep track of all the moving parts? Are you a notes everywhere person or a trust your brain person?

January 11:47

I'm a trust scrivener person. So scrivener has these little pocket kind of like those cards that I see other professional writers use, um, but it has those built into it. So you can just click this thing on the side and write a scene, and then click the next one and write a scene. So you can shift them all around, you can color code them. Yeah, I'm a trust scrivener. It's very handy.

Leigh 12:13

Do you are you a like um some writers print every page off so they can watch the stack grow? I know it's 2026, and that's that's really the optics of that are not very, but you know, just so you can feel progress. Like, can you see word counts with Scrivener that clearly so you can see progress? Because it's a big job, like it's it's hard work.

January 12:37

I sound like I'm getting a commission from Scrivener, and I promise you. Like, I want to be like hashtag gifted. No, it's not as unpaid. You can have a setting in Scrivener where you set your word count, so mine's always a thousand words a day, and you set your entire manuscript word count, and then when I hit a thousand words without looking, a box pops up and makes a sound.

Helen 13:00

So we can't let you go though, in terms of writers, in terms of your favourite Australian crime author, like or at least a book that you've really admired.

January 13:09

I'm gonna say Ally Reynolds, who lives on the Gold Coast, and she wrote Shiver and The Bay, but I think it's also called The Swell, and she writes really fast-paced, um, and the settings are always part of the characters, you know. It's always really um we're on a mountain and it's um snowing and it's a group of ex skiers, you know, and it's it's really quiet. Um, and the bay or the swell is surfers, and they are kind of like the the movie and book the beach. They're literally they're in this almost a locked room experience, but in nature. So yeah, I really enjoy her stories.

Leigh 13:57

Ah, excellent. When you actually sit down to write yourself, um, what's that kind of um pull for you? Um, in terms of like, do you write for yourself? Do you write for your readers? Is it a combination of both? Like, what's the strongest feel that you get when you sit down?

January 14:15

I write for myself, and that's maybe not very commercially viable.

Leigh 14:21

And when you sort of look back at your kind of younger self, what would be the sort of one piece of advice you would give them around writing?

January 14:30

I think it would be something about not looking so outward, just to find I think once I just did say I'm gonna write for I'm gonna write what I like, that's when I'm gonna put all the weird and wonderful things that I like reading. That's when I've had the most success outwardly. Do you know what I mean? But you I've it's also felt successful in me in terms of wanting to sit down and feeling creatively fulfilled, and um yeah, not to worry about what's happening externally and just think, what would you like to read and how would you like your writing life to look? Because sometimes we look at what other people do and we think, Oh, oh, I'd better post every day on social media. Oh no, I'd better film a funny reel because that's what other authors are doing, and actually you just have to write good stories and keep writing. Absolutely.

Leigh 15:30

No writer works alone entirely. Um, who's in your inner circle, you know, writers, creative friends that you talk shop with, um, the people that keep you honest?

January 15:41

I have a friend, Claire, in Melbourne, who we voice bomb 10, 15, 20 times a day. Um, she's the first person that I share any of my exciting news with. She is a great cheerleader, um, always sharing and sending our work to each other. That's fabulous. The Sisters in Crime up here in Brisbane has been a really great way to meet new writers in Brisbane, and that seems to be growing a lot as well. Um, and until they've kind of started, most of my people were in Melbourne. Um, there's just such a strong literary scene in there. Um, yeah, but Australian authors are so supportive of each other, it's really nice and really lovely.

Leigh 16:28

Yeah, we've noticed in you know the brief few months we've been doing this podcast, we have been chatting to a lot of art writers in the background. Um, and that has been our sense immediately, is that they're so in keen and enthusiastic to be coming on, you know, coming on the show. Um and but clearly just listening to to Australian authors speak, um, you know, there is a real generosity that's very evident with with them.

January 16:56

I would say specially crime writers too, actually. In particular, I think even though we write dark content, um we're maybe all a little crazy, and so yeah, they're just really supportive and yeah, happy to share their knowledge, it's great.

Helen 17:15

Um when so on the flip side of that, um how do you handle feedback from editors? And obviously, we spoke about reviewers before, but what actually helps? Um is it just the motivation that you've got a publisher keen on your book, and that's the thing that sort of helps.

January 17:36

I think so. Also, um, they're very professional, and so they are very professional on how they deliver their feedback. So nobody I've never had a bad experience ever with anybody reading my work and and giving unkind feedback or something that's hurt my feelings, because when I share my work, I'm looking to make it better. And so if the feedback I get, and and it comes back to that generosity, I think if you are a writer, you would never say anything mean because you know it's your heart on the page or it's your ego on the page at the very least. Um, so the editors are always very, very professional, and anybody I've ever shared work with has has always been really yeah, I've never had a bad experience.

Leigh 18:25

Oh, that's nice to hear. Um, and from readers, what kind of feedback makes you feel like the books landed with them the way you'd hoped it had?

January 18:33

I think the feedback I got about Desley surprised me. Um, I had people who shared um their own instances of depression or mental illness. Um that was really surprising. That made it feel really important.

Leigh 18:55

And it's nice that that person, you know, reached out to you and shared that as well. Like it would be very easy to keep that to yourself, a bit like we were talking before with the negative stuff that ends up online all the time. You know, the flip side is that you know it would be easy just to keep that to yourself and and feel that um that joy that she obviously got, uh, or that level of comfort. Um so that no, that's nice. That's nice to hear.

January 19:21

And quite vulnerable to share that with a stranger too. To I mean, I couldn't, um, but I appreciated that she did.

Helen 19:27

Yeah, that's and I'm guessing that's um something that nobody tells you when you become a writer, when your work is out in to the public and you actually do have to respond and um react to how people have um actually felt your work has been. That's kind of really interesting. Was there something that you've learned in particular that um kind of nobody mentioned, but you sort of went, actually, this would be really helpful to know to help me navigate why I'm doing this and what I should be doing? Everything.

January 20:03

Everything. Wow. I think when you start writing, you have um a story that you want to put on the page or you want to challenge yourself. You know, everyone writes for different reasons. I just wanted, I guess, to challenge myself to finish. First, it was to start, and then it was to finish. And then the goalposts are always moving because then it's like, well, can you get published? And I the the lead time is so long, that's probably the biggest thing. I didn't realise there was at least 18 months between signing the contract and publication. I thought, how long could that take? A couple of weeks. Wrong. So yeah, that was maybe helpful to have, but I think if you if I'd known that, or if anybody knew that, I don't know that we'd ever start. If you knew how hard it was, we probably would just get turned off. So it might be better that we don't know those things.

Helen 21:05

I think that's a very wise counsel, actually. Yeah.

January 21:09

Just surprise yourself.

Helen 21:11

Yeah. Do you think mountain climbers think that before they start Mount Everest?

January 21:17

I reckon they might be. They probably just look at the step in front of them, right? Yeah. Just let me finish the book and then let me edit the book and then let me do a weird TikTok reel to market the book.

Leigh 21:32

Um it is because it is very much like as well, um, or would you say writing the book and getting the book published is the start of the journey as well. Because the hard work starts once it's out in some regards as well, because you've got to write your next book and you've got to continue to sort of promote your current book. And um so I imagine it's the work never stops.

January 22:00

Just becomes different. Yeah, and uh you're in this weird sort of holding pattern for a while. So for example, Slake House, it's written, it's with the editor. I'm kind of waiting to hear back from her with the edits.

Helen 22:19

So shift gears and maybe end with something uh bit lighter and a and a bit of fun as well. If you were stranded on a deserted island, which Australian crime novel would you take with you?

January 22:30

I would take The Lost Man by Jane Harper. Deserted Island feel, even though it is a landlocked story. I think there is definitely that feeling of being stranded on an island.

Leigh 22:45

Yeah, that was um I I feel like we don't talk about that book that much. We haven't really talked about it much when we um talk about Jane Harper and Peter Temple just obsess well constantly. Um I feel like we haven't really talked about that one too much, and I did love that as um uh as that would be up there with my one of my favourite two or three of hers, I think.

January 23:08

Um The Lost Man was r fabulous. I thought that was just really excellent, and I liked the Tasmania one too.

Leigh 23:17

We talked about this a bit, her ability to include um the geography and the landscapes of Australia. They're all given that she's obviously English um and you know hasn't grown up in Australia, her ability to insert Australian um geography into her books is is wonderful.

January 23:36

And maybe that's why I liked The Lost Man so much. It was a very unusual setting for me. I had never read anything um set like that, like that's proper rural noir, if that's I think what they were calling at that time.

Leigh 23:54

And um quite uh quite startling, like it it made me feel uneasy, just not through any other for any other reason other than you are just so exposed. The characters were just so exposed out there, and um uh you know you get used to in in in crime books, there's all you know, generally there's somebody that is doing something to somebody in that setting, like there was the double to contend with, because obviously there was someone that's done one thing, but so much of that in so much danger in the environment.

January 24:31

So um she put in about how um small town the police came and collected the guns and they just they do that, and I was really like, but why? And then you discover they do that for people that they think are at risk of self-harm, and I mean it was such an unsettling book, but so interesting.

Leigh 24:52

Yes, absolutely. The final chapter were adapted for the screen. Any thoughts on who you'd love to play? Anyone or all of the lead characters?

January 25:02

Brian Brown for Laurie, absolutely, yes, ring in. Good call. Um I can't remember her name. Let me Google her name's Sarah Sarah Sarah Snook from Succession.

Helen 25:19

Sarah Schnook for Desley. Deslie, yes. So you're thinking the dressmaker, the character she played in the dressmaker. Perfect. Perfect. I'd go see that movie. You got me sold. It's great.

Leigh 25:34

Had me at Brian Brown. Also writing crime novels.

January 25:38

Yes.

Leigh 25:40

Anywho, um, so before we let you go, um, we've got a fun way for listeners to get to know you a bit more beyond your books. We like to call it Rapid Fire, The Quick and the Curious. I'll run through a quick list of either-or choices and you just go with your first instinct. Um if you've not done this before, we're winging it too, so we will be all good.

Helen 26:02

And Leigh, don't forget our listeners love our sound effects, so there's got to be a drum roll, okay?

Leigh 26:14

We could end up being a sound effects podcast because I was actually quite enjoying finding all the sound effects, so be careful what you wish for. Okay, yes, no, I'm all good with that. Um are you ready, January?

January 26:26

I'm ready.

Leigh 26:28

Okay, good cop or bad cop?

January 26:30

Bad.

Leigh 26:31

Uh sweet or salty?

January 26:34

Sweet.

Leigh 26:36

One episode at a time or binge the whole season?

January 26:40

Binge. I'm not a psycho.

Leigh 26:45

Um paperback or audiobook?

January 26:48

Ooh, depends.

Leigh 26:52

Uh bunning snag or bakery meat pie?

January 26:55

I'm a vegetarian. Neither.

Helen 27:00

Sometimes you can get vegetarian sausages.

January 27:05

Can I have a cream bun instead? Absolutely.

Leigh 27:09

Uh library or bookshop? Oh.

January 27:14

I love them both. I couldn't. That's like asking me to choose between my children. I can't.

Leigh 27:20

Uh magpie or bin chicken?

January 27:23

Magpie. Too many bin chickens in Queensland. I was gonna say, yeah, I was gonna say.

Leigh 27:31

Climb a mountain or jump out of a plane.

January 27:33

Ooh, climb a mountain.

Leigh 27:35

Uh Netflix or YouTube?

Helen 27:38

Netflix.

Leigh 27:39

This would be interesting. Vegemite toast or Avo Smash.

January 27:43

Oh, again, it's like asking me to choose between my children. Impossible.

Leigh 27:49

I wasn't sure. Being a New Zealander, I wasn't sure whether it whether you get it. Whether it lands. Yeah, Vegemite, that is.

January 27:57

Yeah, yeah. Vegemite. Vegemite always lands.

Leigh 27:59

Um this one's Helen Br Helen's inner bogan coming out. Uh Ford or Holden.

January 28:07

Holden, because I'm a bogan at heart. Excellent.

Leigh 28:12

Vampires or zombies?

January 28:14

Vampires.

Leigh 28:16

Beach or snow?

January 28:18

Beach.

Leigh 28:20

Chris or Liam Hemsworth?

January 28:23

Chris.

Leigh 28:25

AFL or NFL NRL.

January 28:28

What's NRL? League. Right me. It tells you everything you need to know. AFL. Because I really appreciate the short shorts, and I do think it's a crime to have those men's arms locked away with a sleeve. So AFL.

Helen 28:49

That was fantastic. That was seriously like opening up your bathroom cabinet and finding the really good stuff at the back of the cupboard.

Leigh 28:58

Thank you very much for being a good sport on that one.

Helen 29:02

Goodness. Thank you so much, January. You have shared so many gems with us, and um honestly, I think we could have gone um honestly for for more than another hour or so.

Leigh 29:13

Yeah, no, we um we really appreciate having you on. Um as we were saying before, we were we've been talking to a lot of authors, but we knew we wanted to have you on really early, and by earl, really early we mean first. So um thank you for being part of something special for us, Helen and I as well. Like this is um the first interview we're doing for the show. So um thanks so much for your time and for being so generous with your answers.

January 29:37

Thank you for having me. I'm so thrilled to be part of your great podcast. Thanks for having me on.

Leigh 29:42

No worries.